Rexozord

Werewolf: Frequency Sign-Ups

77 posts in this topic

Post game discussion here. I'll post a full role list sometime tomorrow. I also have a full log of events that I can make available, if people are interested. I actually made a few errors here and there, but I don't think any of them would have affected the outcome of the game in a significant way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm really surprised people didn't lynch Red and Inu much, much earlier. Red posted his "I can make people blue!" power pretty early, and Inu told half the game his power privately (since that was private info, I couldn't say anything...).

Also, while including two innocent Disablers was definitely tricky, it hurt the baddie team a lot more than it hurt the OMT. I think people underestimate how problematic Disablers are for nightkill-based baddies (it's actually stronger than a Dream in most cases).

InuyashaOhki likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, weee5067 said:

Also, while including two innocent Disablers was definitely tricky, it hurt the baddie team a lot more than it hurt the OMT. I think people underestimate how problematic Disablers are for nightkill-based baddies (it's actually stronger than a Dream in most cases).

I'm not going to comment too much before I reveal the full set up tomorrow, but I did want to mention something in line with this. Everyone seemed surprised that I included two innocent disablers (although it was really more 1.5 disablers). However, part of my purpose in doing so was to make it more ambiguous in the case that a disabler did hit the baddie spokes. But again, every role ties into all the others, so I'll discuss it more tomorrow with the full set-up list.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Red said:

I'm sorry Inu. I couldn't have any frequency changers messing up my plan to make everyone blue. 

You were right to do so. I was changing almost everyone to red.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My line of thinking the day Mccraabi was executed - "Hmm. It doesn't say on the front page what happens in the case of a tie. I've PMed Rex asking, but haven't gotten an answer. I mean, I suppose it could be a randomizer... but in any case, Rox will be getting replaced or modkilled, because he's missed two votes, and that was the rule. So I should be Regent, and Mccraabi should be safe, so no, NPM, you don't need to bother switching yourself."

Cut to our well-played game falling apart entirely.

NPM wanted to vote for Rox to get herself killed off so I'd get a nightkill at one point, but I thought it was still winnable with both of us. And it was - until the randomizer screwed us over again and made Star regent instead of me on Day 5.

:rolleyes:

And then I was a hypocrite, because I tried to kill myself by electing Star at the last minute. But then she jailed Rox, keeping me in the game for another day. And I hadn't bothered to send a list cause I thought I'd be dead. So there was no kill. And I thought "hey, maybe I can make something out of this!"

But even though NPM disabled + no kill = NPM evil and Traj disabled + no kill = Traj evil, Rox disabled + no kill =/= Rox evil... I dunno, I'm still trying to work that one out. But once I saw that turn of events show up, I basically quit Sparkbomb for the day, because nothing good would have happened had I stuck around and said what I really wanted to.

I will never have a randomizer in another game I host. Too much bad feeling when it goes against you (twice).

 

Edit: That's not to say we made no mistakes during the game (cf. the kill on mrlmaokun, which should have been on Rox, but NPM had a switch in that got messed up by the day's execution and neither of us caught it; also, I could have bussed NPM really hard the day after Mccraabi died, but I always bus my teammates, so I figured I'd switch up my playstyle and try to save NPM because "Traj just wouldn't do that") but the game would have been very different had the innocents not been, apparently, very lucky.

Edited by Trajectory

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Shocked there were two innocent disablers.

Well played Red... Almost hung yourself with the Inu kill but you got away with it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow. Really? Left it to a randomizer the last day? Not gonna lie, little bit ticked about that. ... Imma just say that was a win for little brother since he basically one-handedly led the innos to victory this game. MVP, lil' bro. MVP.

Also, everyone that keeps being all "omg two innocent disablers fo' real"? I wasn't a freaking disabler. There wasn't two of the exact same role. That just happened to be what kept happening. Rox was right calling me more of a pixie role. Freaking terrifying role I had, really. Part of the reason I was advocating jailing. Because I was afraid I'd knock out two people at once during night phase.

Thanks, Rex, for running! I had the same reaction Rift did about the protect/kill role xD Clever, clever!

Edited by TheLastStarMaker

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sinical recently had similar villain experience with a randomizer. Only convincing half of voters gets you a randomizer. It's not as gratifying as winning or losing without luck, but it's what the randomizer is for. Giving other options for tiebreaking favors an outcome, so it has to be balanced out.

I was curious how the Regency would play out. It seems to have encouraged deadlock among innocents, which is a good way to limit innocent power, but was obviously frustrating.

The frequency mechanic wasn't as important as I had expected. It affected powers, but timid play kept it from being noticeable.

The 1.5 disablers was effective at subverting expectations, and I am shocked it took so long to kill off Rox and Star.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll lead with the role list. Actually, it'll be a pain to redo the formatting for SB, so you can view it in this Google Doc.

Also, I'd like to address a misconception the baddie team (mainly Traj) had during the game. Even if I had replaced Rox, the randomizer still would have been used to determine who was the Regent, and you would have been playing with Shattered Rift as the disabler instead of Rox from then on.

And yes, the innocents either got incredibly lucky, or Rox was able to read all three of you, because since the night he executed Mccraabi, he was on all three of you and wouldn't let go. Similarly, though, the baddies were incredibly lucky (or played very well) Nights 1 and 2, because not only did you take out the dreamer Night 1, but you took out both back-up options for the innocents on Night 2 (Cel the heir was executed and you killed Blacjak, who could create some... interesting possibilities for the Regent). Traj got lucky that Mccraabi insisted on killing Weee, because if she hadn't and had followed Traj's plan, Weee would have dreamed Traj as a Frequency Bandit on Night 1. Cel was extremely unlucky this game, as both powers targeting her Night 1 were independently disabled by Rox and Star targeting the two players who targeted Cel. Even after it came out that one of the two powers was caused by a disable, it wasn't enough to save Cel. All-in-all the game start was way more volatile than I expected (although that was foolish in hindsight, with so many roles like the Red Dreamer, the Blue Killer, and the Signal Booster in the game).

The mistakes I mentioned earlier were mainly me forgetting to apply the frequency inverting property of Rox's disable two nights in a row. By the time I realized, I couldn't back up and fix it because Zilary had already frequency dreamed one of his targets. However, it didn't affected the manipulation which resulted in Rox living, nor did it cause a disable instead of a double, and it did not favor nor hinder the OMT flip condition, so I decided to let it be. I also forgot to send certain information a couple of times (misprint on a power here, forgot to give Zilary's target their frequency there), but those I corrected before they could influence the game.

Regarding the game ending on a randomizer roll, it actually didn't. The only possible way for the innocent to have won is for them to elect a Regent who would kill Red and for Star to disable him (you two did happen to land on opposite frequencies) on the same night, and then elect a Regent who would kill Red again on the following night. I just rolled the randomizer for completion's sake (the game would have ended that night regardless). If the randomizer had left both Star and Red on the same frequency, as long as Red chose Rox for his Regency Subversion power, there would have been nothing the innocents could do to win (actually, not true... they could have elected a Regent who was Jailing Zilary or Star, and Rox could have disabled Red to flip his frequency to allow Star to disable him, then Jail him the following night to prime Rox's disable, and then execute Red with both Rox and Star trying to disable Red).

Also, regarding the OMT, I expected it to flip roughly half-way through the game (although I knew that a later or earlier flip was possible). In the end what happened was that Red was chasing around Rox's disable, trying to flip everyone to Blue, with Rox flipping someone back to Red every night. Finally Red managed to target the same person as Rox on the night that the last Red (Trajectory) was being executed. However, I think if Red hadn't missed lists on Nights 2 and 3 (2 because of inactivity, and 3 because he failed to tell me what frequency he wanted) and hadn't completely ignored his ability to invert two people's frequencies, he would have flipped earlier.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Rexozord said:

Also, regarding the OMT, I expected it to flip roughly half-way through the game (although I knew that a later or earlier flip was possible). In the end what happened was that Red was chasing around Rox's disable, trying to flip everyone to Blue, with Rox flipping someone back to Red every night. Finally Red managed to target the same person as Rox on the night that the last Red (Trajectory) was being executed. However, I think if Red hadn't missed lists on Nights 2 and 3 (2 because of inactivity, and 3 because he failed to tell me what frequency he wanted) and hadn't completely ignored his ability to invert two people's frequencies, he would have flipped earlier.

I figured something like this was going on. That's why I kept the frequency flipping part of my role between Star and I and refused to tell him about it on the last day.

But now for the important questions. What was the Regent Action I figured out but didn't have access to?
EDIT: actually read the first paragraph this time. So I got Regent Track, Regent Investigate, no Boost, Drive or Set. 3/6 ain't bad.

Edited by Roxeon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Rexozord said:

Traj got lucky that Mccraabi insisted on killing Weee, because if she hadn't and had followed Traj's plan, Weee would have dreamed Traj as a Frequency Bandit on Night 1.

That sounds like good playing by Traj and mccraabi, not luck. The Cel thing was definitely luck, though.

Zilary is female, last I checked. I think I find it more irritating than she does that you guys keep getting it wrong. She even has a female symbol next to her username.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, weee5067 said:

That sounds like good playing by Traj and mccraabi, not luck. The Cel thing was definitely luck, though.

Zilary is female, last I checked. I think I find it more irritating than she does that you guys keep getting it wrong. She even has a female symbol next to her username.

I didn't get her gender wrong. "His" was referring to Rox, because I was talking about Rox's targets that were not frequency inverted correctly. I generally try to not make a mistake regarding gender once I have been corrected, and hopefully, now that gender icons have been restored, others will make that mistake less.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, weee5067 said:

Ah, good to hear. I know one or two other players got it wrong during the game, though, so my complaint stands.

I guess we'll just have to keep referring to everyone as female until things get sorted out.

 

Absolutely brilliant game design. I can see now just how much SparkWiki influenced things, as well as how much you expanded on various ideas.

The ideas of Transformation and Frequency have me more excited about Werewolf than I've been in a very long time. Don't get me wrong: I loved All-Stars and enjoy a classic game. But these two mechanics (or variations on one mechanic, more accurately) add a really fascinating layer to Werewolf.

 

A few thoughts...

The OMT's Regency Subversion seems really powerful for an OMT to have... but I take it that you expected the Bandits to still be alive at that point and to be able to kill Red. Would Red's protection have caused the baddie kill to skip him, or would it have essentially disabled it? (I would assume a skip, but nothing in your notes suggests that.)

Frequency Trace is really neat.

Definitely an interesting take on the Messenger role (and including Frequency Tap). I really wish we had a game where the Message power was used to good effect. It feels like we're still hitting general disuse.

I really like the idea of augmenting execution with other powers. I think Regency Jail ended up playing out in much the way it should: how many times can you really argue for jailing a player instead of executing them? On the other hand, I feel like we had this conversation a while back and the question was much more murky at the time. But it led to a fascinating take on the Governor role, and I hope to see more of it (in one way or another) in the future.

There's a lot of just plain good design in the split-power roles. Killer/Protector. A Dreamer that dreams innocent half the time (and knows how her results can be corrupted). Doubler/Disabler. The way the uncertainty played out with Star was fantastic. It subverts my preference of "Make sure players always know what they did" without involving a randomizer in powers (the hectic route) and makes it a game of possibilities without having to withhold knowledge of who they targeted (which is a nightmare to deal with as a baddie).

TheLastStarMaker likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I enjoyed the Frequency mechanic and the Regent mechanic.  Frequency reminded me some of Sinical's game involving world lines and mine regarding inside/outside in that what you could do and who you could do it to essentially depended on which basket you or the target was in (here the basket was frequency).  I think that added a level of complexity.  It did make me not want to often use my role ability -- I could bus drive or could switch lists between 2 targets depending on whether their frequencies matched.  Since I usually had very little information as to frequency I was often worried about using the abilities.  I was particularly worried about putting any member of my team on the list as I did find out that could cause ours spokes (mccraabi then me) to either self-target or target a teammate.  It was particularly worrisome for me once I found out that we weren't necessarily told about frequency changes that happen to us.  So, a player could easily think he or she was a particular frequency and be totally wrong.

I found the Regent mechanic very interesting.  In some ways it did seem like effectively removing execution from the game in trade for electing someone who would have a 100% effective day kill.  I actually wondered if that would make it too difficult for the innocents.  As it turned out, I think this mechanic added a lot to the game and is one that I could see stealing in the future....

Overall, I enjoyed the game a lot.  I thought it was very well done.  I do want to address the Rox replacement issue.  Before doing it, I want to make clear that I know Rex faced a difficult decision.  I also think that this game was a great game and very well done and Rex did a great job with the game.  But, I do have this one quibble.

2 hours ago, Rexozord said:

Also, I'd like to address a misconception the baddie team (mainly Traj) had during the game. Even if I had replaced Rox, the randomizer still would have been used to determine who was the Regent, and you would have been playing with Shattered Rift as the disabler instead of Rox from then on.

I would make a few comments on this.  First, yes, I fully understand that you could have replaced Rox instead of modkilling him.  And, of course, that is what you should do in that situation.  And, yes, if replaced then the randomizer would have still gone off if you considered him eligible to be Regent. So, not replacing Rox was a consequential decision.

But we can't assume the game would have played out the same with Rift as disabler instead of Rox. Even if it made no difference for that day, Rift is a different person, plays differently, posts differently, analyzes things differently, etc.  So, we don't know it would have had the same result.

And, all of that assumes that Rox was eligible to be the Regent and I am not sure that he should have been given the nature of his rule 

The big issue I had is that your rule about replacement was unequivocal.  

Quote

Players are required to be active for each day/night cycle. This is enforced through voting (voting is required). If you do not vote for two consecutive days you will be replaced, or if a suitable replacement cannot be found, you will be modkilled.

What is important here is that it gives a clear mechanism for what is considered inactivity and says that if you don't vote for two consecutive days you will be replaced or modkilled.

It can be argued that the above assumes that anyone who doesn't vote is someone who is being overall inactive in the game.  And, that since Rox was otherwise active except for voting this shouldn't apply.  The problem with that is twofold.

First, the rule is clear.  If you don't vote 2 consecutive days you get replaced or modkilled.  Every other player in this game took that rule seriously.  At times, it was painful to have to vote for another player for Regent.  But, we were required to vote.  Particularly if one were in the running for Regent, it was difficult to decide who to vote for.  If I wanted to be Regent, I would have to vote for someone else and hope that it didn't give others the idea to switch to that player.  This was often a difficult -- an strategic -- choice. (Obviously that later changed when we could vote for ourselves).  We couldn't just not vote because that was against the rules and I take rules very seriously.

But, Rox didn't follow the rules.  He didn't have to make the hard choice.  This is particularly important on the day that the randomizer picked him.  What would have happened had he voted for someone.  Maybe there were players who didn't want to vote for Traj and voted for Rox as he was the only player with votes.  But, if Rox had voted for someone maybe the vote would have swung to someone else.  Remember, Rox himself said not to elect him that day since he wouldn't be online near execution time.  By not voting, Rox essentially ensured it was a situation where the alternatives were him or Traj with him not giving any preference for who he would choose.

For that reason, I think his failure to vote was egregious and the failure to vote should have disqualified him from being Regent even if you elected not to replace him (although I think he should have been replaced given his rule violation).

Note - I am not saying that an MC can't change a rule during the game.  I have done it myself where I felt the harm from not changing the rule was greater than the harm from changing it.  It is just that in this case, I don't think that standard was met.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Neopetsmom said:

But we can't assume the game would have played out the same with Rift as disabler instead of Rox. Even if it made no difference for that day, Rift is a different person, plays differently, posts differently, analyzes things differently, etc.  So, we don't know it would have had the same result.

I think that Rex was referring exclusively to the result of that day's Regent results (which Tanner was upset with) and not to the rest of the game. I probably would have done a poor job in Rox's place. (On the other hand, at that point in the game I was convinced that Star was innocent, so who knows.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Even if I had replaced Rox, in no universe would I have considered him an invalid target for Regency. I understand that his failure to vote placed slightly more burden (psychologically, anyway) on the baddie team, but that wouldn't justify invalidating every innocent vote that was placed on him for a reason that none of those voters had any control over.

Regarding the lack of voting, I don't think that was a concern. The rule against self-voting was meant to prevent deadlocks where everyone would prefer to vote for themselves rather than lending their vote to someone else. It wasn't meant to make it difficult to choose who to vote for while a forerunner in votes. I would have accepted No One votes, although I went back and checked, and I said nothing about that in the ruleset or in the sign-up thread. On the other hand, no one asked me about it either.

The primary reason I did not want to replace Rox is because I had no idea if Red would continue to be active (he nearly got himself replaced) and I did not want to burn my only replacement on a player who, despite breaking the inactivity rule, was active by any other metric I could consider. It was very important to game balance that the OMT be active within the game. I do regret writing the rule to not give me any level of discretion. However, when the most powerful argument for me replacing a player is that he technically broke the inactivity rule despite being more active than other players who weren't breaking the rule, and I have to balance that against legitimate game health issues, then I'm probably going to side with game health issues 9/10. It is hard to say how the outcome would have been affected with Shattered as an active participant instead of Rox, though.

EDIT: Oh, I almost forgot. Since NPM brought up her inside/outside game, I wanted to mention that I had a blast in that game (I was the OMT), and although I didn't really think about it (consciously, anyway) at all during my design, it is almost certainly the seed of the idea of frequency.

EDIT2: Oh yes, and NPM, I really wanted to point this out during the game, but I felt it would be unfair of me as MC to do so without being prompted/asked. When you asked about how your Manipulation power would work if it used the list swap portion of the power and you were at the top of one of the lists, I told you it would swap your list A with the other target's list (possibly causing the other target to target themself), but not affect you because your power was already being resolved. If you had asked about a more generic case, I would have told you that the Manipulation power, when targeting a player with more than one list, will swap the first valid one submitted. If you wanted to use your power on a teammate, but guard against the possibility of the kill being swapped onto one of your teammates, you could have had the spokes submit their personal power list first and then the kill list second, to prevent your Manipulation from affecting the kill list at all. Again, I wish I could have told you this, but it felt to me as if it would be in the realm of suggesting strategy, which I think it's inappropriate for an MC to do during their game. I do wish I had written the Manipulation power to be a bit more clear, though.

Edited by Rexozord
TheLastStarMaker likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Rexozord said:

Even if I had replaced Rox, in no universe would I have considered him an invalid target for Regency.

A version of Rex with a goatee just said he'd totally do that, then disappeared into a dimensional portal while cackling.

I'd agree about leaving yourself more discretion, but otherwise I've been in the same spot where active players were breaking the "must do X" rule I set and had to make the same call.

6 hours ago, Rexozord said:

Again, I wish I could have told you this, but it felt to me as if it would be in the realm of suggesting strategy, which I think it's inappropriate for an MC to do during their game.

When I run into this situation, I give intentionally and obviously ludicrous examples. In this case, you could have given it in the form of "If Buu has a list for turning people into turnips, and another list for turning them into chocolate, and Buu submits the chocolate list first, that's the one you'll replace." (If you don't get the reference, congratulate yourself on not having wasted 100 hours of watching yelling and excessive animation cell reuse to get 3 hours of plot.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rex - On the manipulation power, I actually looked carefully at the role and determined that it would switch all lists.

The wording was 

Quote

If they have different frequencies, and they both have submitted lists, their lists will be swapped.

It didn't say their first list would each be swapped.  It said "lists" so I read that as all lists.  It really never occurred to me think it could possibly mean anything else.  I knew that wasn't true for me, but I chalked that up to the fact of my role and the priority order.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As I said, I really wish I had worded it in a more clear way. :unsure: It's definitely the most complicated single power I included in the set-up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ah, sorry, I'm typically the last one to respond to post-game discussions. Mainly because I spend time away from the Internets on weekends.

The game was quite interesting and enjoyable. I did like how the the Regent mechanic played out, though, I do wish the Regent had more powers involved depending on your role. As for my role, I didn't quite figure out how to use it better to my advantage. I knew people had powers in relation with frequency, but I didn't get in touch with anyone really...but I'm not typically the one that reaches out (need to improve on that). As far as the latter half of the game went, I made some poor judgement calls as I was aptly confused and swayed as to who was innocent. Traj had reached out to me, and convinced me to vote a certain way, a lot of "out of nowhere"-ness. I didn't get a good read on Red, but neither did I get convinced when he executed Inu out-of-the-blue. I thought Red was just a lying low vigi, but he was a lying low baddie. I knew Star and Rox were strongly working together, but the two disablers did throw me off quite a bit during the game. I should have reached out to Rox that last night and have him reveal his role, but oh well.

As a frequency dreamer, I didn't want to reveal frequencies in fear that the baddies would have used them to their advantage nor did I really try to figure out a way to help the innocents with my frequency knowledge. I did have a hunch early on that blue = more likely baddies, but I didn't really investigate further.

Overall, I thought it was a good game and Rex did an excellent job at organizing and hosting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now