InuyashaOhki

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Wait, so Red was innocent, after all this time? Man, I thought for sure he was going to turn out to be an OMT, and that we had just manipulated him into taking out one of the baddies for us tonight.  Sorry for suspecting you Red :)

I am also surprised at the number of villains vs innocents, there just didn't seem to be that many in comparison, 1 more made sense to me, which is why I thought it would be Red.

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I understand the lack of baddies, actually. I was worried going into this that the innocents would have a severe disadvantage. It's a LOT more difficult to coordinate as a group when PMs aren't allowed, and you have to be careful about revealing too much/ too little information. I think 1 more would have been a standard number in a regular game, but not one with no PMs. Maybe a neutral would have helped though, I'm not sure.

That said, I enjoyed this game very much. Although, it was very frustrating trying to *hint* at things and having them be ignored.

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Regarding balance, I put a high kill rate in the game, with a mechanism that the villain team could use to double it's kill rate. The OMT was also able to be invulnerable half the time. My tests showed it balance out with the higher number of innocents. And, indeed, if Zilary had killed an innocent instead of the OMT on one of his not-invulnerable nights, and if Red had been executed, the innocents would now be outnumbered by villains. I'm not sure if it was imbalanced or not in this regard, because the math still shows this was decision-based rather than power-based result, however, I do think it wound up too swingy.

There was also the wariness mechanism that was supposed to limit innocent powers as the villain team would use 0% to ensure their attacks worked while the innocents would have a variety of random levels of defense or ineffectuality, and even the defense would protect against innocents using their info powers on each other. This was a part of the problem. Random.org seemed to freaking love the innocents. Info roles almost never got caught. Taking one example who left her wariness at 50% the whole game - she got caught 1 time but used her power nightly - and that one time was the only time where her chances of getting caught were LOWERED. Others were less straightforward, but no one got caught more than once.

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27 minutes ago, mccraabi said:

I understand the lack of baddies, actually. I was worried going into this that the innocents would have a severe disadvantage. It's a LOT more difficult to coordinate as a group when PMs aren't allowed, and you have to be careful about revealing too much/ too little information. I think 1 more would have been a standard number in a regular game, but not one with no PMs. Maybe a neutral would have helped though, I'm not sure.

That said, I enjoyed this game very much. Although, it was very frustrating trying to *hint* at things and having them be ignored.

I took all of your hints seriously :). The very first night, I saw you in Weee's room. When you started posting stuff in tiny text, I knew it was you I had seen. Not only did nothing bad happen to Weee, you also hinted Weee was innocent. At that point, I knew whatever your vote was, I wanted to vote the same way you did, hence the Cel vote. :)

13 minutes ago, InuyashaOhki said:

Regarding balance, I put a high kill rate in the game, with a mechanism that the villain team could use to double it's kill rate. The OMT was also able to be invulnerable half the time. My tests showed it balance out with the higher number of innocents. And, indeed, if Zilary had killed an innocent instead of the OMT on one of his not-invulnerable nights, and if Red had been executed, the innocents would now be outnumbered by villains. I'm not sure if it was imbalanced or not in this regard, because the math still shows this was decision-based rather than power-based result, however, I do think it wound up too swingy.

There was also the wariness mechanism that was supposed to limit innocent powers as the villain team would use 0% to ensure their attacks worked while the innocents would have a variety of random levels of defense or ineffectuality, and even the defense would protect against innocents using their info powers on each other. This was a part of the problem. Random.org seemed to freaking love the innocents. Info roles almost never got caught. Taking one example who left her wariness at 50% the whole game - she got caught 1 time but used her power nightly - and that one time was the only time where her chances of getting caught were LOWERED. Others were less straightforward, but no one got caught more than once.

 

And then there was me, and I didn't even mess with Wariness, kept it at 0% the entire time :) You kept hinting that this game would favor the bold, so I assumed that meant removing my wariness.

Also, this makes a lot sense as to why it ended so quickly, we had a neutral turtle that could have turned into a bad guy. So, from that perspective, suspecting Red wasn't entirely wrong :) 

Edited by smiletrue1

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1 minute ago, smiletrue1 said:

And then there was me, and I didn't even mess with Wariness, kept it at 0% the entire time :) You kept hinting that this game would favor the bold, so I assumed that meant removing my wariness.

Hey Smile, just FYI it's considered bad etiquette to double post unless there's a really good reason to (Werewolf hosts, for instance, usually are allowed to for the purpose of their game). We normally just edit our post if we forget to say something.

 

Upon reviewing the set-up, I understand why Inu had less baddies than we would expect. However, three powerful investigative roles (four if you count Lion's) I think more than makes up for whatever detriment there is to no PMing. Also, with NPM's role, the innocents still had coordinating power. I think the game might have been slightly more balanced if Red's role had been replaced with a fourth team baddie role, it would have been slightly more balanced. Still, I don't think this set-up was bad, necessarily. The team baddies just drew quite a bit of undue attention to themselves and the OMT got quite unlucky (seriously, that OMT role was very cool, especially with the uncertainty that wariness introduces).

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40 minutes ago, Red said:

I'm exhausted. I've probably never had to type this much in a game.

It's very demoralizing to know you are innocent, reveal everything you know and have to still fight to convince people that you aren't evil. 

Especially when it all started with a Nobody vote on Day 2. If you look at All-Stars, I voted Nobody Day 2 and I died Day/Night 5 as an innocent.

 

It doesn't help that people don't believe my roles could've existed. Like a Vigilante with a daily night kill instead of one day kill. Or the fact that I was a turtle and it was a coincidence that NPM stated people could be a turtle.

 

Just because something is "convenient" (a word zodiac used many times to describe my alibi) or a "coincidence" (my own word) does not mean it isn't true. 

And it doesn't mean you shouldn't investigate a person based on substantive evidence instead of your own opinion on what roles should or shouldn't exist.

 

 

To be fair, I was partly gunning for you so hard because I wanted to live long enough to rez someone (I was worried we'd be at a huge disadvantage if I didn't), and you'd made the vote me vs. you. That's why I switched off of you immediately the next Day - Cel actually had evidence against her, and I was no longer as worried about self-preservation.
 It also looks like mccraabi chose good Dream targets, since she caught Cel and kept people from lynching a suspicious-acting NPM.

Reading what other people have said, I'm really curious how mccraabi survived so long. I had her pegged as some sort of investigator Day 2, and since Zilary was actually evil, it really doesn't seem like there were better targets. I have no clue what Rex and I did to become higher-priority...

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9 minutes ago, weee5067 said:

To be fair, I was partly gunning for you so hard because I wanted to live long enough to rez someone (I was worried we'd be at a huge disadvantage if I didn't), and you'd made the vote me vs. you. That's why I switched off of you immediately the next Day - Cel actually had evidence against her, and I was no longer as worried about self-preservation.
 It also looks like mccraabi chose good Dream targets, since she caught Cel and kept people from lynching a suspicious-acting NPM.

Reading what other people have said, I'm really curious how mccraabi survived so long. I had her pegged as some sort of investigator Day 2, and since Zilary was actually evil, it really doesn't seem like there were better targets. I have no clue what Rex and I did to become higher-priority...

Pretty sure I was killed because blacjak knew I was going to push execution on him and had already pushed for execution on Zilary. Also, they knew exactly what my role was because Zilary had copied it (that's who the baddie wolf kill was from). Not exactly certain what you did, but it could be because Mccraabi had soft-claimed that you were innocent? Still, if I was a baddie, I would definitely have targeted Mccraabi unless I had seriously pressing concerns. I also would have bussed Cel super hard.

EDIT: Also, I think Mccraabi played super well. I didn't realize her Day 2 softclaim was a softclaim until she softclaimed against Cel on Day 3. Very good investigator play for a no PM game.

Edited by Rexozord

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@Red For what it's worth, I began to believe you were innocent towards the end having been pretty certain you were a serious threat. I was in a private communication with Neo and Mccraabi and said yesterday that maybe we should vote Zilary instead... I only didn't change my vote because I fell asleep as I'm in Europe and it was late. My self and Mccraabi both targeted blacjak last night (myself disabling him and her dreaming him)... So in the end we got it right. But your story and actions were so bizarre could you blame me?? But a good thing to come out of it I think, is because we were two innocents at loggerheads with each other that the villains let us live and allowed you to get the coup de grace on blacjak... Poetic 😄

I'll be back later with more.

Edited by thezodiac

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I enjoyed the game a lot.  I loved the transformations and the posting requirements were interesting.  Because innocents and evil players had posting requirements I didn't really bother to try to do anything cute with mine.  Just did the minimum (use tweet in each paragraph).  What was interesting was that it was clear to me once I was in contact with Zodiac and Mccraabi how much the posting requirements really did tell you something about the role of the player.

I thought it was incredibly ironic that I had the role that could allow setting up PMs (I could PM in a group conversation with 2 players for a day).  I only used it for that last day.  Before then I wasn't sure who to pick and, as most know, I don't usually initiate PMs.  But, I knew it was important in this game.  I did wait until I was fairly sure zodiac and mccraabi were innocent.

I really did think Red was evil but toward the end I thought it was possible that he was telling the truth and started neutral and could inherit alignment along with role.  Obviously, some players would have tried hard to inherit an evil role.  But this really gave some uncertainty to the game.

One reason he was suspicious of course was that Lion seemed like he was likely an heir so why have two heirs?

As for whether the game was balanced, I often think it is hard to know that.  We always use hindsight based upon what happened.  But, it could have worked out very different.  What if Red had chosen to inherit Cel's role?  What if McCraabi had been killed instead of Killerk?  What if McCraabi had dreamed Sinical instead of Cel?  And so on. 

One thing I might have done was to give more survivability to Killerk.  The early death of an OMT often derails the balance of the game. I know that Killerk had stuff that protected him, but it wasn't absolute.  With an OMT, I often make them have a self-rez or an early immunity to death or the first "death" won't kill them, etc.  I don't do that to favor the OMT but simply to not have the game become unbalanced if the OMT dies early.

Still, I think that innocents did have a fair amount of luck and that may make this seem more unbalanced than it really was.  I would really like to see Inu run this game again (well, a variation of it but with the transformation structure) and see how it plays out.

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I just started to get cool powers and the game ended. :( As much as I enjoyed the premise of the game and how it was ran, my role was not much fun for me personally. I understand it likely had strategic importance, but for me personally, I was looking forward to posting requirements, transformations, and Wariness - and I didn't get to mess with any of those mechanics until literally the day before the end. I understand that had the game gone longer I would have had more to do, and the role itself was certainly not "bad" or anything - I just kind of wish someone else had gotten it.

Thanks for hosting, though, Inu, I hope this doesn't come across as condemnation or anything.

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I'll have to hear from mccraabi and the baddies to be sure, but I think a lot of our win was good playing, not luck. NPM, your light defense of Cel looked extremely suspicious given the evidence (Cel's behavior, the nightkill target, and mccraabi's investigation result) - if I'd been the Dreamer, I would have Dreamed you Night 3 too. People in general (good playing, smile!) also did a good job following mccraabi without getting her killed (ironically, it looks like I might have been the one to almost mess that up, because the rest of you were so subtle about it that I thought no one else realized she was the Dreamer).

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I certainly don't mean to imply that players didn't play well.  They did.  In any game, I think there are factors of game structure (balance), player skill, and luck.

I actually thought I was being clear about the Cel thing.  I felt Red was suspicious.  I did think it was suspicious that Cel, Voce and I think Traj swooped in and saved Red (ironically, of course, none of them were really trying to save an evil teammate).  But, I thought Red was more suspicious and I didn't see anything to make Cel more suspicious than Voce or Traj.  And, the quick switch of votes to her was disconcerting to me.  The main thing though was that when I gave the "light defense" of Cel (and I think that is a good term for it), it was before the Mccraabi investigation result was clear.  As soon as I saw Mccraabi's strong suggestion I switched votes (anything before that was too subtle for me to get it). That said, I think that Mccraabi dreaming me was certainly a reasonable thing to do.

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1 hour ago, Neopetsmom said:

I would really like to see Inu run this game again (well, a variation of it but with the transformation structure) and see how it plays out.

I think I will tweak wariness a bit before I do it again so that it's less random. It was originally just going to be a mechanism for controlling "catching" other players, but it was too big of an effect not to factor into the balance. If I do it again, I'll also need to be more subtle about the assignment of forms to roles, since I've already played the overthink card on this one with the innocent wolf and everything else making sense. I may just randomize the role-form combinations and come up with a ridiculous excuse for why a form goes with a role, heh.

Based on the feedback, I think people would prefer I designed the sequel as a slower paced game where they got to use their transformations more. I'll start thinking on how to make it all work out. I'm going to be out Tuesday for surgery, so I'll have time to lay the groundwork for it while I'm sitting at home recovering. I'm definitely open to any thoughts or suggestions people have on it. Mini-Mccraabi sneaking under doors and Zodiac-the-fly buzzing in people's ears were great aspects of this from my perspective. 

 

My list of things to consider so far:

  • Say "fortune favors the bold" at least twice as often (kidding...)
  • Ditch non-transforming roles. Traj had the least transformy one starting out, but it had the most variability because it inherited several of the roles the Heir couldn't. If I slow the game a bit, I don't need much redundancy. Even if I do need redundancy, I'll figure out some better way to handle it than staying human and waiting.
  • Slower pace (possibly more non-death villain goals like pyro)
  • Less random outcome from wariness - I intentionally didn't go with numeric comparison before since it narrows down outcomes a lot (for example, at worst Zodiac-fly had about a 16% chance of dying from getting swatted). Still, that might be the way to go to give players more control over their fates.
  • Shifting wariness to a "DEFCON" style slider from Focused to Wary that simplifies the choice (0%, 25%, 50%, 75%, 100%). Psychologically it's easier to decide between 5 options than 100 options.
  • No white-on-white posting requirement. The mini-font one I will probably keep, though.
  • More forced changes (turned into something against your will) - this was in this game, but never got used
  • More factions (game size depending)
  • A clear template for each player's nightly list, since this one is kind of complicated with the wariness.

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The NPM dream was because she was one of the last to switch vote to Cel, and only did so after I made it so obvious that you couldn't claim innocence and NOT vote for Cel. 

As zodiac said, I was in PMs with NPM and him after dreaming NPM, which was lucky for me. NPM actually captured me in a jar the night I dreamed her, so I was able to just tell her to let me go before night results. I told Zodiac/NPM that I was suspicious of Blacjack/Zilary/Red in that order, and that's the order I'd be dreaming. So, even if Red hadn't killed blac, I would have gotten his results and we would have won tomorrow.

Well, we would have won if I wasn't killed at least. I still have no idea why I wasn't attacked that entire game, that seems like a bad decision by the baddies. I soft-claimed from as soon as I got results.

Also, I was the one who left wariness at 50% the entire game, lol. I just forgot about it the first 2 nights, and then since things had been working for me so far, I didn't mess with it. 

 

Oh, also weee did you notice my *energy* wording? I was trying to make it subtle enough so that it wasn't a hard claim, but you still realized I knew what your transformer was. 

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I have to give mccraabi props for that one. 

Titanic's_propellers.jpg

Even knowing who had what powers and what information she'd learned, I didn't catch on what the energy comment was about.

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my view: Make it more explicit that my role could prevent someone from transforming into their own form. I didn't use it the first two nights because I felt like it was just handing powers out, and I wanted to try and avoid handing powers to anyone evil. 

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1 hour ago, Exiled Phoenix said:

my view: Make it more explicit that my role could prevent someone from transforming into their own form. I didn't use it the first two nights because I felt like it was just handing powers out, and I wanted to try and avoid handing powers to anyone evil. 

Your feeling was correct, you were just handing out limited powers. The transformation was forced, but it was circumvent-able by the one receiving it. 

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@Rexozord if I ever gloat, it's only to put it up to Sinical and Inu who constantly highlight that I'm always wrong 😄😄. 

@smiletrue1 must say I was impressed with your first game. You took the bull by the horns and rode it hard. You weren't afraid to put your opinion out there. That's how to do it!! So many first timers just lay low, not really knowing what to say or do. 

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1 minute ago, thezodiac said:

@Rexozord if I ever gloat, it's only to put it up to Sinical and Inu who constantly highlight that I'm always wrong 😄😄. 

@smiletrue1 must say I was impressed with your first game. You took the bull by the horns and rode it hard. You weren't afraid to put your opinion out there. That's how to do it!! So many first timers just lay low, not really knowing what to say or do. 

Lol, fair enough.

And you raise a good point. I thought Smile played pretty well on thread. Some of the stuff she did at the beginning was a little questionable, but overall it was a good first performance.

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